Transcript of Terry Gross interview with Richard Cizik
on NPR’s Fresh Air, December 2, 2008
Go to audio of the interview on NPR's site by clicking here.
This interview with Richard Cizik (VP for Governmental Affairs, NAE) by Terry Gross has received much attention. Particularly controversial are Richard Cizik's statements regarding same-sex marriage and civil unions.
GROSS: This is fresh air, I’m Terry Gross. The evangelical base was pivotal in the election and reelection of George W. Bush, but it wasn’t enough to get a McCain/ Palin victory. So in this post-election period what influence does the evangelical community have in the Republican Party? And what will its goals be during the Obama administration? My guest, Richard Cizik, is the chief lobbyist for the National Association of Evangelicals, the organization represents about 45,000 churches with over 50 denominations with roughly 30 million constituents.
In 2006 Cizik was described in the LA Times as “a slightly younger, considerably less pugnacious and reflexively Republican generation of conservative leaders bidding to dislodge familiar faces such as Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Richard Land.” The environment and climate change have been priorities for Cizik, which has put him at odds with some older evangelical leaders and with some in the Republican party.
Richard Cizik, welcome back to Fresh Air. I don’t mean to put your on the spot here, and I realize this might be personal and you might not want to talk about it, but in interviews before the election it sounded like you might be tilting toward Obama, so I’m going to ask you who you voted for, knowing that it’s your right to not tell us. (1:20)
CIZIK: Well, Terry, let me answer it this way. In the Virginia primary I voted for Barack Obama. In other words, I would rather not say, in the election general, just who it is that I did vote for. But that’s an indication. But it doesn’t say definitively. In other words I don’t want anybody to think because I’m lobbyist in chief for the National Association of Evangelicals that because I voted one way or the other I can’t represent their concern; I believe I can. I happen to think in the primary it was the best choice. People disagreed, evangelicals did in the last election, in the final election, but I think all of us, today, believe, we want this man to succeed. If we don’t think that then there’s something wrong with us.
GROSS: How important is faith to you when you’re voting? (2:00)
CIZIK: I think it’s very important. It’s not the factor, nor should it be though there are those who by identity politics and culture war they do that. And that’s the most important factor. I say, ‘no, absolutely not, character first’ of which faith is a part, of course; it helps determine a person’s values but there are other factors such as the philosophy of government, two parties, two different philosophies, and lastly, the issues. So it’s possible for me to disagree, for example, with a candidate on high profile issues, and still believe on the basis of character and philosophy he’s the better of the two candidates.
So in this case, it would be possible, as evangelicals did, to disagree with Barack Obama on same-sex marriage and abortion, and yet vote for him. We know they did. Not because of those positions he stood [for] but in spite of those positions.
GROSS: So how big a split do you see now in the evangelical movement over what direction the movement should head in and what issue should be emphasized? (3:00)
CIZIK: It’s hard to know Terry because even the younger evangelicals, those that went for Obama, they clearly are pro-life, they’re conservatives, but they’re also… well, 32% of evangelicals voted for Obama—younger evangelicals, that is. That’s twice the number that voted for John Kerry 4 years ago, and this is a big increase in states like Colorado, Indiana, and North Carolina. So the younger evangelicals are probably the future, with that broader palate. And they will determine the future of this huge movement that, well by some surveys, estimates, if you include their children and the rest include 100 million people—one-third of all Americans.
GROSS: So in that younger group that you’re describing is gay marriage not a priority issue?
CIZIK: It’s not as high, no. In fact if you look as some figures, these younger evangelicals, they disagree quite strongly with their elders on that subject.
GROSS: Do you think that that’s in part because younger people are growing up in an environment where they know gay people? There are so many gay people who are out, and once you know gay people who are out maybe it’s not so threatening.
CIZIK: Absolutely. The influence of their generational peers is clear. Four in 10 young evangelicals say they have a close friend or a family member who’s gay or lesbian. And so, much different from their elders, younger evangelicals, they, well, 52% favor either same-sex marriage or civil unions. But it’s not just on this issue Terry. For example, fully 2/3 of younger evangelicals say they would still vote for a candidate even if the candidate disagreed with them on the issue of abortion. And that’s in spite of the fact that younger evangelicals, and they are decidedly pro-life, but they also rank other issues, economic issues, the environment, these other issues are very important to them. In fact, healthcare is just as important to the younger evangelicals as is abortion. And so, they have a more pluralistic outlook than older white evangelicals. And they have a decidedly different posture with respect to the role of government here and abroad.
GROSS: Do you think that the evangelical base has lost any clout within the Republican Party because the Republicans lost the presidential election? (5:05)
CIZIK: Oh, it’s inescapable, that loss of clout. You hear it in the party’s leaders who are questioning this. They know—that is the leaders of the GOP—they know that they can’t win without these votes, but they can’t win the rest of the voters that they need at times because of the way evangelicals have behaved, within the political party.
GROSS: What do you mean by that?
CIZIK: Well, remember, Dick Armey once referred to one of our leaders as a bully and a thug. Well, those are harsh words, but that was a leader of the Republican party referring to how he was getting pressure. Well, the tactics that have been employed have altogether backfired it seems to me. Everyone knows that. And so look, you have to have a vision, and you have to have a strategy, a strategy that works, and if your strategy isn’t working, then rethink it. To make its way forward, the Republican Party is going to have to come up with a vision that appeals to people a strategy that in fact works and its adherents, those who claim it as their own, have to avoid tactics that don’t destroy it in the meanwhile. (6:20)
GROSS: I imagine you didn’t agree with Sarah Palin on environmental issues, for example her emphasis on “drill, baby, drill,” and also the fact that she said she wasn’t sure if human behavior contributed to climate change. Climate change and the environment are issues you’re trying to put much more to the top of the evangelical agenda.
CIZIK: Yeah, you’re right I couldn’t have disagreed with her more. Just a year ago, we found out from climate scientists that the melt in the arctic had turned into a route. It was happening so fast it was as if your hair turned gray over night. Now I have a receding hairline, but I don’t have all my hair turning gray overnight. Well, that’s what happened with the environment; an area the size of Colorado was disappearing every week and the Northwest Passage was staying wide open all September for the first time in history. And so, to look at this and not see what’s happening, I think is, well it was sort of the ‘ignorance is strength’ idea—Well, NOT. It’s not strength. Strength is knowing what’s happening to the world around us. Moreover, as a Christian we can’t claim to love the creator and abuse the world we’re in. To do so is like claiming to love Shakespeare and burn his plays.
GROSS: Is there a big debate in evangelical circles now about what the future of Sarah Palin should be in the Republican Party—whether she is the future or whether she is a problem? (7:40)
CIZIK: Oh, I think there certainly is a certain amount of that debate going on, but I think that people are sort of content to let Alaskans decide that before she becomes a national candidate she has to get reelected.
GROSS: So you think that Alaskans will vote her out of office thus ending her political career? (7:55)
CIZIK: Maybe. WE don’t know. But I don’t think that you can humbly walk into the future and not understand that we don’t know all the answers and if you don’t have self-awareness about that, well I don’t think you can embody the Christian values of humility and justice and walking humbly with your Lord. There was something missing there that you just didn’t see and you’re sensing it here. In other words, a certain humility about it all.
GROSS: Mmhmm.
CIZIK: I like that; I look forward to seeing that demonstrated in Barack Obama’s policies. The younger evangelicals have a different attitude in fact, uh, even toward the use of military. I happen to be among these evangelical young people even though by age I might not qualify, right? And the idea that well you can have a sort of anti-science anti-intellectualism and walk into the world with a big stick and hope to be able to win these wars—You can’t win these wars we’re fighting with a big stick; we know that.
GROSS: Let me ask you; you say that you really identify with the concerns and priorities of younger evangelical voters and one of those priorities is uh—it’s more of an acceptance of homosexuality and gay marriage. A couple of years ago when you were on our show I asked you if you were changing your mind on that and two years ago you said that you were still opposed to gay marriage. But now as you identify more and more with the younger voters and their priorities, have you changed on gay marriage? (9:20)
CIZIK: I’m shifting; I have to admit. In other words, I would willing say I believe in civil unions. I don’t officially support redefining marriage, from its traditional definition, I don’t think. WE have this tension going on in our movement between what is church-building and what is nation-building, and I lean in this spectrum at times, maybe we should concentrate on building our values in our own movement. WE have become so absorbed in the question of gay rights and the rest, we fail to understand the challenges and threats to marriage itself—heterosexual marriage. Maybe we need to re-evaluate this and look at it a little differently.
I’m always looking at ways to reframe issues, give the biblical point of view a different slant, if you will. And look, we have to—the whole world—literally the planet—is changing around us. If you don’t change the way you think, and adapt, especially to things like climate change, scientists like Bob Doppled, he says ‘well, if you don’t adapt, and change your thinking, you may ultimately be a loser’ because climate change in his mind—he’s a systems analyst—has the capacity to determine the winners and losers. Your life will never be the same growing up during, I say, the ‘great warming’.
Our grandparents grew up during the great depression, our parents—well, they uh, lived in the aftermath of that, and became probably the most, well, the greediest generation and our generation, this younger one, needs to be the greenest. (11:00)
GROSS: Steven Waldman of Beliefnet raised this question that I want to put to you. Barack Obama supports the right to have an abortion, but he also advocates reducing the number of abortions when possible. Will you support him in abortion reduction or do you see that as, a diversion from the work of banning or restricting abortion?
CIZIK: I will support him. I will support Barack Obama in finding ways to reduce abortions, absolutely.
GROSS: Now is that controversial within the evangelical movement?
CIZIK: For some, yes, I have already been called one of the devil’s minions for taking this position but it’s an acknowledgement that—
GROSS: Because it’s seen as compromising?
CIZIK: Yes, it’s seen as compromising. And, but that’s again that winner-take- all mentality that you have to have it all. In politics I’ve learned over many years, less is more. I think finding those who are in trouble, in crisis, helping them through this, and if need be even supplying what government presently doesn’t do, namely, contraception, is an answer to reducing, you see, unintended pregnancies.
You see, these are…
GROSS: Wait, wait, wait, I think I heard you saying government supplying contraception. That’s gotta be controversial among evangelicals.
CIZIK: Among some it would be but I don’t think so. We are not, as I have said previously, we’re not Catholics who oppose contraception per se. And let’s face it, what do you want; do you want an unintended pregnancy that results in abortion or do you want to meet a woman’s needs in crisis, who frankly, would by better contraception, avoid that choice, avoid that abortion that we all recognize is morally repugnant—at least it is to me.
GROSS: So what else is on your list of priorities now as the chief lobbyist of the National Association of Evangelicals? (13:00) What are you looking forward to after January 20th?
CIZIK: I can say that one of the bigger war and peace issues that I’m struggling with and attempting to find a role on is the threat of nuclear terrorism and the new report that just came out this week that said it’s greater and realer than we ever thought before. I’m actually going to Paris to be part of unveiling a new movement called Global Zero, which is an attempt to understand that whereas the threat of nuclear weapons was a deterrent, and now it no longer is. In a world in which you have non-state actors who can potentially wield weapons of mass destruction, the mere possessions of weapons of mass destruction becomes morally problematic in ways unheard of before if this makes any sense.
And so, therefore, this movement called Global Zero, supported by both John McCain and Barack Obama, will come forward I think in the next week and months ahead to communicate a strategy to begin to address this threat of nuclear terrorism. That’s one thing I want to be a part that I thinkis very important for evangelicals; after all, most would not make any connection but I’ve been with the NAE so long that I was on staff back when I actually proposed a letter to then President Ronald Reagan which became the evil empire speech to the National Association back in 1983. And while few remember it, that speech known for challenging the Soviet Union, included a line from the President advocating the abolition of all nuclear weapons. Most would not remember that, and yet it was true. It became a reality at Reykjavik in conversations that President had with the President of the former Soviet Union.
So, I happen to think this is one of the premier issues along with climate change that will impact the rest of life here on earth.
GROSS: I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but I think I’ve heard you say that you wanna find, and you want your group the National Association of Evangelicals to find some common ground with Obama and work with him. IS that going to be hard to convince a lot of your members to do?
CIZIK: Well, for those to whom all compromise is simply submitting, you see, to political correctness or whatever for them, it’s going to be very hard, but for most evangelicals I don’t think so. After all, we believe, you see, that God is alive and real and he lifts up some and puts down others. And ultimately we’ve got to say God has put this man in this position, it’s our responsibility to pray for him, to support him, to work with him in whatever ways we can. It will require for some bridging outward- bridging outward, that’s Robert Putnam’s term—bridging outward to collaborate with Barack Obama to do what is right by so many different people who need the kinds of policies he’s espousing.
That will be hard, yes, but should we do it? Yes. And will we hold him accountable when he happens to run against what we happen to think is right and good and proper and all the rest? We will do that, but we’ll do it in a nice way. And we’re not going to be, I think objectionable, in the way that we have been in the past, as I said, that led one Republican leader to call one of our members a bully and a thug. That’s not who we are. (16:30)
GROSS: Now let me just ask you a pointed question. Are you waiting for some of the evangelical leaders who have opposed you on issues like your concern about the environment and climate change—are you waiting for them to retire and leave the stage? And I guess I’m thinking most specifically, here, about James Dobson.
CIZIK: I’m not waiting. I would want Jim Dobson to join us, because this is about creation care, it’s what the bible teaches, it is Godly, it is right. So I’m not waiting for him to leave the scene at all. I want him to join us. In other words, Terry, I’m always looking for allies not adversaries; always allies. This is important. It’s strategically important for Christians to care for this earth, just as it’s important for Christians to care for the family. These are equals; they’re both part of God’s concern, they’re both part of His heart. So no, I’m not waiting.
GROSS: I appreciate what you’re saying but at the same time I think the odds of you winning over James Dobson on this are probably slim, so do you think…
CIZIK: (laughs) With God all things are possible!
GROSS: …what’s going to change in the long run is that he and some of the other people who oppose your work putting environmental issues near the top of the agenda, do you think that what’s going to change is that they will retire and that there will be a new guard? (17:50)
CIZIK: Well, sometimes I believe that occurs. Even some of the names back on the letter a couple years ago are gone. But that doesn’t change the fact that we all will pay a price for not changing. The earth is reaping the consequences of our actions when we don’t reexamine our habits of consumption, right? The poor around the world, well, they’re reaping the consequences of us failing to meet our obligations. This is not something that can wait for any of us to retire. (Some may be wanting me to, but...)
The Gospel paints a vision of society that is relationally and environmentally sustainable. What do I mean by that? Relationally sustainable- it’s a message of hope that we all get along, not just get along but work together for a cause which is bigger than ourselves. (18:40)
GROSS: Since we’re in the final weeks of the Bush administration, I’d like to ask you your thoughts as that administration comes to an end. What do you think were his achievements, what do you think were your greatest disappointments?
CIZIK: Greatest achievements: surely the effort called the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS relief. This is felt in real ways in sub-Saharan Africa in ways that we in the West don’t even understand. They love us as Americans because of what George W. Bush did on that.
I think, on the other hand, this man of faith failed to understand in my estimation, religion in the Middle East, and it led to a war that’s been unnecessarily long. It may have been right, as it were, to take out Saddam Hussein, but the way this war was waged in so many ways I think everyone would have to admit was ill-planned, ill-conceived and the rest. So, look, one has to have mixed emotions about the Bush administration.
GROSS: And what are the ways that you think he has helped, and /or hurt, the evangelical community?
CIZIK: I suppose George W. Bush’s faith was a mixed blessing. On the one hand, we evangelicals took pride in the fact that this man became president who openly said that he was a person of faith, for whom, even Jesus he said was his favorite philosopher. And yet, he didn’t in so many ways reflect that Jesus as we would have wanted him to have. With a humility and a fashion to the rest of the world that communicated just what kind of people we are. I don’t think that real picture ever came through.
GROSS: Richard Cizik, thank you so much for talking with us.
CIZIK: Thank you, Terry.
GROSS: Richard Cizik is the chief lobbyist for the National Association of Evangelicals. I’m Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air.